Un-Muddying the waters

Humility, Hiding & Honesty: Reclaiming What It Means to Lead with Truth

🎙️ Unmuddying the Waters – Episode 7
Title: Humility, Hiding & Honesty: Reclaiming What It Means to Lead with TruthGuest: Tonye Mack (Director, Producer, Editor)Host: Joshua OkunlolaDuration: ~24 mins
🔍 Episode Summary
In this deeply personal and thought-provoking episode, Joshua is joined by longtime friend and creative powerhouse Tonye Mak to explore the evolving meaning of humility in leadership and life. Together, they unpack how humility has been misinterpreted as hiding, downplaying, or dimming one's light and reframe it as an act of truth-telling.
From the dual identity of “Tony vs. Sonya” to cultural and faith-based expectations around confidence, they explore how systems of upbringing, race, faith, and professional norms shape how we show up in rooms and what we silence in ourselves to be accepted.
🧭 Key Themes
The myth of humility as invisibility
Confidence vs. arrogance: walking the line
Faith, culture, and the pressure to shrink
Reclaiming voice in professional spaces
Why honesty not hiding is true humility
💬 Quotes to Remember
“Humility is not about being unseen—it’s about telling the truth.”— Joshua Okunlola
“In dimming your light, you’re not being humble. You’re actually lying.”— Tonye Mak
“Jesus was humble—but he was also confident. He knew who he was.”— Tonye Mak
“There’s a cultural system in me that tells me not to shine… and then pats me on the back for staying small.”— Joshua Okunlola
✨ Reflection Prompt
Ask yourself:
Where have I been hiding under the name of humility?
What truths about my gifts and limitations am I afraid to name?
What would it look like to lead with honest presence instead of performative smallness?
🎬 Guest Links
IG: @tonyemak
Latest work: Dating Black Season 3 on BET International
Upcoming: Debut short film in production (stay tuned!)
🎧 Listen + Share
If this episode resonated with you, please:
Share it with a friend who needs this conversation
Tag @joshua_okunlola_ and @tonyemak on Instagram with your takeaways
Rate and review the show—it helps amplify these necessary dialogues
🔁 Closing Words
Lead with clarity.Lead with courage.Start telling the truth.

EP6 - The courage to take a different vantage point

In this episode, Joshua and Angela explore the metaphor of the spiral staircase to rethink how we experience learning and leadership growth. Angela shares insights from her 15-year journey in primary education and leadership—culminating in her role as deputy head during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic—and recounts a powerful mentoring anecdote that illustrates how reflection, perspective and implementation drive deeper progress each time we revisit familiar challenges.
⏱️ Timestamps & Highlights
00:00 – 02:00 | Welcome & IntroductionsJoshua welcomes Angela, who outlines her 15-year teaching career, leadership roles (phase leader → assistant head → deputy head in 2019–20) and current work mentoring early-career teachers in Lambeth.
02:00 – 05:00 | The Spiral Staircase Metaphor
Linear vs circular views of learning
Spiral staircase: circling back at a higher vantage point
Relevance to life and leadership
05:00 – 14:00 | Core Components of Spiralling Learning
Reflection – Pausing to analyse experiences
Perspective – Adopting a growth-orientated, humble mindset
Implementation – Applying new insights to measure real progress
14:00 – 20:00 | Mentoring Anecdote: A Lesson in HumilityAngela recounts a meeting where she inadvertently spoke over an early-career teacher.
Initial shock, shame and self-doubt
Reflections on intentions versus impact
Perspective shift: modelling humility rather than stepping aside
Implementing new behaviours to rebuild trust
Outcome: a stronger mentorship relationship and broader leadership growth
20:00 – 24:00 | Fixed vs Growth Mindset & the Role of HumilityJoshua highlights how Angela’s story demonstrates:
Moving beyond “I’m just not cut out for this” to “How can I grow?”
Embracing mistakes as invitations to go deeper rather than failures to avoid
24:00 – 28:00 | Practical “Why” Questions for LeadersAngela suggests reflective prompts to climb the spiral more intentionally:
“Why did this happen?”
“Why was I triggered?”
Exploring underlying beliefs and emotions for richer context
Measuring growth by comparing “what I know now” with “what I knew before”
28:00 – 30:00 | Closing Thoughts & Call to Action
“Learning isn’t about ticking boxes; it’s layering wisdom on wisdom.”
Lean into the spiral when you feel stuck.
Invite listeners to suggest future prompts via LinkedIn.
🎙️ Key Take-Aways
Spiral Staircase Metaphor:Revisiting challenges isn’t regression—it’s elevation. Each return offers a new vantage for deeper learning.
Three Pillars of Spiralling Learning:
Reflection: Pause and analyse what happened and why.
Perspective: Adopt a growth mindset and humility.
Implementation: Apply new insights to gauge tangible progress.
Humility in Leadership:True growth often involves confronting shame, reframing mistakes and modelling vulnerability.
Actionable Questions:Use “why” prompts to uncover root causes and chart next steps:
Why did this happen?
Why did I respond this way?
What can I do differently next time?
Measure Your Growth:Compare current capabilities with past ones: “What do I know or do now that I couldn’t before?”
🔗 Resources & Connect
Joshua Okunlola (Host):LinkedIn
Angela Gaisie (Guest):LinkedIn
Podcast Contact & Feedback:Share episode prompts or reflections via LinkedIn message to Joshua or Angela.
Lead with curiosity. Embrace the spiral. Take it easy!

EP5 - The power of no

In episode five of the Un Muddy in the Waters podcast, host Joshua Okunlola dives into the crucial topic of setting boundaries as a leader. Joshua shares his personal struggles with being a people pleaser and the impact it had on his professional and personal life. He discusses the consequences of living by others' expectations and how it led to depletion, anxiety, and disconnection. By recounting his experiences, Joshua illustrates the importance of defining one’s own limits and the positive changes that come from saying no when necessary. He offers practical advice and reflective questions for listeners to evaluate their own boundaries, emphasising that true leadership is about carrying what aligns with one’s values and capacities rather than trying to fulfil external expectations. This episode serves as a guide to help leaders lead with courage, clarity, and intention.
00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic
00:55 The Struggles of Being a People Pleaser
02:57 The Consequences of Saying Yes to Everything
05:13 Realising the Need for Boundaries
07:26 Implementing and Benefiting from Boundaries
08:45 Reflective Questions on Boundaries
09:52 Conclusion and Call to Action
 

EP4 - Journey from Control to Connection in Leadership

In this episode of the 'Un Muddying the Waters' podcast, host Joshua Okunlola discusses the pressure leaders often face to appear more confident and knowledgeable than they are.
He shares personal experiences from his early days as a facilitator and trainer, highlighting the costs of prioritising appearance and control over genuine connection and presence.
Joshua explains how he learned the importance of authenticity in leadership, trusting the process, and valuing the wisdom of the group. He urges listeners to reflect on areas where they may be seeking control, and to consider the benefits of leading with genuine presence and integrity.
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview00:36 The Pressure to Appear Confident00:56 Early Experiences as a Facilitator03:28 The Cost of Pretending06:51 Realisations and Unlearning07:39 Key Lessons in Leadership09:22 Reflective Questions for Leaders09:51 Closing Remarks and Invitation to Connect

EP3- Who Are You at Work? Exploring Hidden Roles in Leadership

In episode three of the Un-Muddying in the Waters podcast, host Joshua delves into the concept of unspoken and assumed leadership roles through the lens of Role Theory, developed by transactional analysis practitioner Bernd Schmid (2006) . Using role theory and a real-life story of a leader mirroring familiar dynamics in her professional life, Joshua illustrates how our past roles influence present behaviour. He poses reflective questions to help listeners identify and redefine their leadership roles for better clarity and effectiveness. The episode emphasises intentional leadership and the need to differentiate between roles from our personal lives and those required in professional settings.
 
00:00 Introduction to Episode Three
00:35 Exploring Role Theory
03:30 Real-Life Application of Role Theory
08:35 Questions for Self-Reflection
10:54 Conclusion and Call to Action

EP2 - Uncovering Lies About Courage and Leadership

In episode two of the 'Un Muddy in the Waters' podcast, host Joshua Okunlola discusses his misconceptions about courage, particularly in leadership. He reflects on his former belief that courage required loud, grand gestures and shares how he now sees it in the quiet admission of human vulnerability. Joshua speaks about his early leadership experience, struggles with asking for help, and the resultant burnout from trying to appear infallible. He emphasizes that real courage involves recognizing and embracing one's humanity, which includes asking for help and leading collaboratively. Joshua concludes by challenging listeners to reflect on the lies they may believe about courage and encourages them to practice truth over performance in their leadership roles.

Intro/Do it messy EP1

What’s one area of your leadership where you’re waiting to be “ready”?